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标题: 命运多舛的HK416—【新闻】美军要求特殊部队（special unit）上缴416 [打印本页]

作者: markzmark 时间: 2008-3-12 19:51
标题: 命运多舛的HK416—【新闻】美军要求特殊部队（special unit）上缴416
刚刚在《美国陆军时报》看到一条2008年3月11日新鲜出炉的新闻：
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/03/army_no416s_031008w/
大意如下：
军方要求AWG（the Asymmetric Warfare Group，不知道怎么翻译，应该是特殊部队的机构）上缴特殊部队（special unit）手里的几百支HK416步枪（美军的special unit啥时候已经搞到几百支416啦？厉害啊），理由是军方的任务要求他们统一装备，使用M4步枪。
AWG对此极为不满，向军方据理力争，试图保住这几百支HK416，理由是416的性能远远超过M4，所需保养也远远低于M4。
很多有特种作战经验的资深士官对军方要求他们上缴416极为愤怒，认为这将削弱他们的作战能力，而且也是对已经花出去的金钱的巨大浪费！

[ 本帖最后由 markzmark 于 2008-3-13 14:57 编辑 ]

作者: BigBobBY 时间: 2008-3-12 20:00
.....米国从自由走到剥削自由啊

作者: 豺狼 时间: 2008-3-12 20:16
有一种职业叫枪手，它是一种需要从不同层次，不同角度出发进行宣传的工作。通常得在技术层面、媒体层面、军事生活层面等等不同层面上进展，以不同的形式，有技术人员型的缜密分析，有大头兵式的市井之言，更有有良心国防部官员的煽情语句，以影响不同的人群——从国会山的老愤青，刚进军队的新兵蛋子，到拥有N多勋章的老兵油子。

[ 本帖最后由豺狼于 2008-3-12 20:18 编辑 ]

作者: markzmark 时间: 2008-3-12 20:27

原帖由豺狼于 2008-3-12 20:16 发表
有一种职业叫枪手，它是一种需要从不同层次，不同角度出发进行宣传的工作。通常得在技术层面、媒体层面、军事生活层面等等不同层面上进展，以不同的形式，有技术人员型的缜密分析，有大头兵式的市井之言，更有有良心 ...

您的意思这是对HK416的炒作？？

作者: 欧根亲王 时间: 2008-3-13 00:03
H&K素幕后黑手...

作者: rotoruaboy 时间: 2008-3-13 00:08
官僚主义是美国**最恨也最爱的东西,爱它是因为可以拿来整对手,恨它是因为也可以被对手用来整自己

作者: kakayi 时间: 2008-3-13 01:52

原帖由 欧根亲王 于 2008-3-13 00:03 发表
H&K素幕后黑手...

李宁一直说:一切皆有可能?

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-13 11:05
为啥，是换M4不是换SCAR？？？

作者: markzmark 时间: 2008-3-13 14:58
我刚才又确认了一下，新闻里是说special unit，翻译成“特种部队”可能不一定对，所以我改成“特殊部队”了。

作者: dboy 时间: 2008-3-13 15:46
有些东西还真不知道真假

早在AR15.COM上看到有人说KAC M110不是SASS竞标中打得最准的，而且说在伊拉克的海豹说MK11 MOD0都不是那么准，前段时间还听到一些更有意思的小道消息：

KAC经常请一些对国防部有影响力的退休将军来座谈，座谈完发十来万的“辛苦费”。
已经有国会议员对KAC的产品卖得这么贵发出质疑，并且与“辛苦费”事件挂上钩，如果KAC解决不到这个危机，估计得面对行贿的司法调查了。
在驻伊美军传来的消息，说M110表现不是那么好——虽然也不是很差，不过这个精度水平对不起8000美刀的高价位，这个价还不包括Leupold的瞄准镜。

作者: jason-lee 时间: 2008-3-13 16:54
官僚主义.......全世界都有的，不稀罕......

作者: jacky2003 时间: 2008-3-13 18:22
Asymmetric Warfare Group
非对称作战群
美国陆军06还是07年新组建的部队。传统战争一般都是一对一的正面较量，而现在反恐战争是对手无处在也无处不在，防不胜防。美国人很是头疼，称其为非对称作战，其实就是反恐部队拉。估计就是给原来非官方的DBOY一个公开身份。

作者: markzmark 时间: 2008-3-13 18:34

原帖由 jacky2003 于 2008-3-13 18:22 发表
Asymmetric Warfare Group
非对称作战群
美国陆军06还是07年新组建的部队。传统战争一般都是一对一的正面较量，而现在反恐战争是对手无处在也无处不在，防不胜防。美国人很是头疼，称其为非对称作战，其实就是反恐 ...

解释得真专业，佩服！

作者: 绿色兵团 时间: 2008-3-13 18:36
啥时天朝也能设计出HK416这样的内外兼修的枪呢?

作者: papop 时间: 2008-3-14 09:49
楼主！您的这则消息我可以转载吗？

作者: 2008 时间: 2008-3-14 09:53
都有**

呵呵

哪里都一样

作者: 风行KTM 时间: 2008-3-14 15:55
416要是在米国部队消失了倒是好事，第一可以多少削弱点战斗力，第二可以让我们这些非军版不收的狗友们少破费些。hoho！

作者: OULID 时间: 2008-3-14 16:29
HK416 确实比M4好很多 HK的武器还是很受 USA人民喜欢的!

作者: papop 时间: 2008-3-14 18:40

原帖由 dboy 于 2008-3-13 15:46 发表
有些东西还真不知道真假

早在AR15.COM上看到有人说KAC M110不是SASS竞标中打得最准的，而且说在伊拉克的海豹说MK11 MOD0都不是那么准，前段时间还听到一些更有意思的小道消息：

KAC经常请一些对国防部有影响力 ...

Dboy，

不是说美海军特种部队用SCAR，陆军特种部队用HK416吗？怎么现在陆军高层反悔了？想自费武功？

作者: dboy 时间: 2008-3-14 18:52
是陆军特种部队想用HK416啊，不是陆军高层想用HK416啊。高层跟下面想法不一定一样的。

作者: 匪兵乙 时间: 2008-3-14 21:46
老D，最新一期Target上的消息，HK现在开始和Wilcox合作，将USP和416的生产外包给Wilcox鸟。

作者: papop 时间: 2008-3-15 10:51

原帖由 匪兵乙 于 2008-3-14 21:46 发表
老D，最新一期Target上的消息，HK现在开始和Wilcox合作，将USP和416的生产外包给Wilcox鸟。

Wilcox是个什么公司？过去有过什么出名的产品？

作者: 欧根亲王 时间: 2008-3-15 11:08

原帖由 papop 于 2008-3-15 10:51 发表

Wilcox是个什么公司？过去有过什么出名的产品？

http://www.wilcoxind.com/
做周边零配件的厂商就像曾经的KAC

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-19 09:47
兄弟现在有下文吗,很关心的呀

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-21 16:57
最新消息
by David Crane
Defense Review
Thursday, March 20

DefenseReview was one of the first publications to report on the results of the Fall 2007 M4 Carbine "Extreme Dust Test". We published that story on December 18, 2007. Well, on December 19, 2007, we received two email communications (below) from one of our professional contacts in U.S. Army Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG), who shed some light on an HK416 confiscation program that was already in process as we were reporting the test results. This process, i.e. total HK 416 confiscation from AWG operators, has since been completed, whereby AWG warfighter were forced to turn in all their 416s (HK416s) (approx. 240+ guns, total).

Needless to say, our contact and the rest of the boys in AWG are not happy about this.

Below are the two email communications we received. Both messages have been sanitized, and the second message has been slightly modified for readability. Here:
Quote:
"From: XXXX
Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 8:44 AM
Subject: M4 vs M4A1
To: David Crane

David,

The AWG is losing its HK416 carbines and they are being replaced by M4s [Colt M4 Carbine] – not M4A1s [Colt M4A1 Carbine], but [just plain ol'] M4s. We’ve already turned in 30 to Lexington Army Depot and will continue to turn in 30 per week until all 240-something HK416s are turned in.

We see this as a huge waste of time and resources, with the end product being a less effective unit. There was a lot of range time and setup time that went into every one of those weapons. And now we’ll have to do the same thing with these M4s.

It wouldn’t be so bad if we were getting M4A1s. Most of us have had M4A1s, and although it isn’t as good as a HK416, it was workable. It was also very easy to get waivers to replace the trigger with a KAC match grade trigger.

With the M4 we do not have that capability. Nobody makes a match grade 3-round burst trigger (nor would it be cost effective). Therefore we cannot put a better trigger in the M4. If we put an aftermarket trigger in the M4 it would give it an auto capability vice a burst capability, thereby changing the “function” or designation of the weapon (which is frowned on). What’s worse is the 3-round burst trigger of the M4 is the most atrocious trigger on the market. It has 3 varying trigger pulls, all of them hard (between 11-14 lb) and the take up is different every 3rd round as well. At least the M4A1 has an 8-11 pound trigger pull that is very consistent, due to its full auto trigger pack. In order replace any functioning component of these weapons we have to file for a waiver (gas piston upper, free-float forend, etc.) and it is very difficult. But the trigger is the most important deficiency. We can’t do much about that burst trigger.

-XXXX"
The above message was followed by the following message:
Quote:
"From: XXXX
Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Subject: M4 vs M4A1 part 2 (the HK416 turn in)
To: David Crane

David,

Some of these facts may not be perfectly accurate due to the second-hand nature of all of these conversations and speculations on the motives of others. Apparently when a bill came to the Senate with $375,000,000 going to Colt for the continuation of arming the US Army with the M4, Senator Coburn (R-OK) questioned the bill and took action as much as he could. He asked the Army why they are continuing with the M4 program when he had heard how unreliable it was from US Soldiers and also asked why elite units like Delta and AWG had switched to the HK416 due to reliability. GEN Brown of PEO Soldier defended the M4 with biased rhetoric like, “soldiers like the M4,” and retorted that the US Army had not authorized anybody to use the HK416, and that it must have been illegally developed and purchased.

The truth is that the SMU community did it legally, but not the traditional Army way (the expensive, 5 to 10 year, political Army way). But when some senators (Coburn included) asked the acting Secretary of the Army and Vice Chief of Staff of the Army (Gen Cody) why the SMUs have these better weapons and the regular Army is investing $375 Million in the M4, they responded that the SMUs and other SOF units (many SF Groups) were not authorized to purchase the 416s. The Vice COS (Gen Cody) ordered all units (including Delta) to stop using the HK416s due to political backlash. Most units (including the AWG) all but refused and gave every rebuttal possible. Delta fought it because it could technically be considered in their charter – but this wasn’t settled until recently. Two Tier-1 units were the only units allowed to keep their HK416s.

Gen Brown continued to urge Gen Cody to force those units to turn in the HK416s or the Army would face more political backlash for not competitively contracting the Army Carbine. Gen Cody determined that these HK416s weren’t worth the political backlash and ordered AWG and others to turning their HK416s. AWG fought back citing waste of resources, morale, and performance issues, but Gen Cody’s staff eventually gave a direct order to the AWG Commander to turn them in.

David -The important thing to convey to the public and politicians is that the HK416 fires the same rounds, uses the same magazine, and shares the same butt-stock, optics, accessories, and many, many parts as the M4. To stop buying the M4 and contract for the same amount of similarly priced HK416 would not be a major logistical/program overhaul, and would still allow the Army to pursue the future “leap-ahead” weapon technology.
History lesson [from Military.com]:

=====================================================================

Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4

By Christian Lowe
Military.com
April 30, 2007

The debate over the Army's choice to purchase hundreds of thousands of M4 carbines for its new brigade combat teams is facing stiff opposition from a small group of senators who say the rifle may be inferior to others already in the field.

In an April 12 letter to acting Army Secretary Pete Geren, Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn said purchase of the M4 - a shortened version of the Vietnam-era M16 - was based on requirements from the early 1990s and that better, more reliable weapons exist that could give Army troops a more effective weapon.

Coburn asked the Army to hold a "free and open competition" before inking sole-source contracts worth about $375 million to M4 manufacturer, West Hartford, Conn.-based Colt Defense - which just received a $50 million Army contract for M4s on April 20.

"I am concerned with the Army's plans to procure nearly half a million new rifles outside of any competitive process," Coburn wrote in the mid-April letter obtained by Military.com.

A Geren spokesman said the secretary's office is putting together a reply to Coburn's letter, but provided no further details.

Coburn has banded together with a small group of like-minded senators to push the Army into a competition to determine whether the M4 is the best choice to equip newly-forming brigade combat teams, a top Coburn aide said.

The senator's concerns grew out of media coverage that showed the M4's design fails in critical situations and that special operations forces prefer other designs.

"Considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon," Coburn wrote. "A number of manufacturers have researched, tested and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability."

Special operations forces, including "tier one" units such as the Army's Delta Force and the Navy's SEAL Development Group - or SEAL Team Six - have used their own funds to purchase the Heckler & Koch-built 416, which uses a gas-piston operating system less susceptible to failure than Colt's gas-operated design.

"That's significant, because these guys don't screw around," the aide said.

In fact, Colt included four different weapons in the competition to build the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, or SCAR, none of which used the M4s gas system, the aide said.

In a routine acquisition notice March 23, a U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa announced that it is buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines. The M4 fires using a system that redirects gas from the expended round to eject it and reload another. The 416 and SCAR use a gas-operated piston that physically pushes the bolt back to eject the round and load another.

Carbon buildup from the M4's gas system has plagued the rifle for years, resulting in some close calls with Soldiers in combat whose rifles jammed at critical moments.

According to the solicitation for the new upper receiver assemblies, the 416 "allows Soldiers to replace the existing M4 upper receiver with an HK proprietary gas system that does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's interior. This reduces operator cleaning time, and increases the reliability of the M4 Carbine, particularly in an environment in which sand and dust are prevalent."

Yet the Army has still declined to buy anything other than the M4 for its regular troops, requesting about $100 million in the 2007 wartime supplemental to buy M4s for its Soldiers.

The office in charge of equipping Soldiers said in a March 30 statement the service has no plans to purchase the HK416.

"I am certain we can all agree that America's Soldiers should have the best technology in their hands," Coburn wrote. "And there is simply no excuse for not providing our soldiers the best weapon - not just a weapon that is 'good enough.' "

The Army has not yet responded to Coburn's letter, but his aide said if the senator doesn't receive a response to the letter by Monday, Coburn plans to call Geren personally to address the issue.

"Our feeling is once people see the facts on the face of it they're going to say that this is ridiculous and demand that the Army does it right and competes the contract," the aide said."

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-21 16:57
那位老大翻译下,实在看不明白

作者: 匪兵乙 时间: 2008-3-21 17:36
大意是，AWG手上的416正在以每周30把的速度被换成老式的M-4（不是M4A1）。AWG的人说，如果是换成M4A1的话倒也算了，但是现在上峰换给他们的是只有三发点射，没有全自动的M-4，搞的基层怨声载道。

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-21 18:23
上面提到三角洲和SEAL都有416,还说有人可以保留部分416,AWG到底是三角洲吗???

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-3-21 18:36
Two Tier-1 units were the only units allowed to keep their HK416s. 是不是说三角洲和SEAL(tier one" units such as the Army's Delta Force and the Navy's SEAL Development Group)都会保留416呢

作者: 維持動亂部队 时间: 2008-3-24 10:41
一人发一把AK算了，经济又实惠

作者: 2008 时间: 2008-3-24 10:55
关心换下来的416的去向

作者: 匪兵乙 时间: 2008-3-24 13:40

原帖由 2008 于 2008-3-24 10:55 发表
关心换下来的416的去向

销毁，压路机滴干活。

作者: dboy 时间: 2008-3-24 17:58

原帖由 2008 于 2008-3-24 10:55 发表
关心换下来的416的去向

没收了领导拿去自己玩

作者: nedbruce 时间: 2008-3-25 22:07
天啊.........换成M4还不带A1...........那不是连平顶型机匣都没有???太惨了吧?别人出生入死的.........想问下这个部队属于USSOCOM么?

作者: papop 时间: 2008-3-26 09:07

原帖由 nedbruce 于 2008-3-25 22:07 发表
天啊.........换成M4还不带A1...........那不是连平顶型机匣都没有???太惨了吧?别人出生入死的.........想问下这个部队属于USSOCOM么?

现在的M4和M4A1的区别，都不能以有没有平顶机匣来判断，因为现在生产的M4也都是用平顶机匣的。

现在只能用是3发点射还是全自动连发来判断是M4还是M4A1

作者: jamestai 时间: 2008-4-3 16:43
說白了就是為了商業利益運用政治介入,誰叫你HK不是美國公司,沒養參議員.

作者: johnnyshen 时间: 2008-4-3 17:33
呵呵，看来还是我们好，不要出生入死，还有VFC HK416 BB 狗玩。

作者: dc_b4-MC 时间: 2008-4-4 21:31
5. Never forget that the lowest bidder made your weapon.
别忘了你手上的武器是由最低价的承包商得标制造的。

:002

作者: CLASSICARMY 时间: 2008-4-14 22:16
美国的枪械公司在国会中势力强大，别说换掉hk416，就算将来把scar换回m4我都不会觉得奇怪。地方保护主义存在于世界的每一个角落，希望下任总统能够明察秋毫吧。

作者: estelaa 时间: 2008-4-24 12:10
最近有新消息吗

作者: 神狙手 时间: 2008-4-28 01:21

原帖由 dboy 于 2008-3-14 18:52 发表
是陆军特种部队想用HK416啊，不是陆军高层想用HK416啊。高层跟下面想法不一定一样的。

关键是基层部队的真正需求，也要看是谁在用啊！如此官僚实在令人气愤。

作者: fisher 时间: 2008-4-28 01:30

原帖由 神狙手 于 2008-4-28 01:21 发表

关键是基层部队的真正需求，也要看是谁在用啊！如此官僚实在令人气愤。

美帝的官僚与你何干？喝你的2.5红酒去！

作者: jam 时间: 2008-4-28 12:17
说实话，换我是领导也不会换！

这SCAR、416什么的，有什么好处？平顶机匣有什么特别？纯属吃饱了撑的，M16A2、M4A1就已经是很成熟的设计，而那些缺陷（对应新产品的改进）如残渣等在美军里面根本就不成问题，你看现在大家用起来有问题吗？缺点肯定是怎么找怎么有的，只要适用就可以了，否则一辈子也找不到合用的产品！又拿AK说事——AK改进的，只是方便了生产方面，基本结构就没怎么动过，而针对M16系列的改进至今花了过亿的美元，416也有几千万的投入了吧？不就提高了维护的便利吗？其它如精确度、舒适性、携行性、耐用度有什么质的飞跃？能使战斗力提高几个档次？就连当时的XM8，枪管什么的都换了各项指标都比M4好很多（G36的种么），都被无情的抛弃，凭什么你416就能入选？不要以为样子象就可以，还不是一样都是“外姓”？

至于“基层部队的需求”，用惯了1000美元的，现在给你一个1200的，据说花了几千万研制的，你也想用一下试试的，至于好在哪里，贵在哪里，能说出个所以然吗？他们的官僚在于：有收这家钱的，也有收那家钱的，看谁的势力大（貌似全世界都是这样的），没有革命性提高的产品，命运也是可以想象的了。

作者: johnsonred 时间: 2008-4-28 16:54
JAM姐姐又来愤青了！哈哈哈！

作者: jam 时间: 2008-4-28 17:16

又欺负我……

作者: bigdick 时间: 2008-4-30 10:35
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/military_rifle/index.html

作者: kknd2 时间: 2008-4-30 16:17
官僚作风严重啊！！米国也一样啊！

作者: papop 时间: 2008-5-4 11:41

原帖由 jam 于 2008-4-28 12:17 发表
说实话，换我是领导也不会换！

这SCAR、416什么的，有什么好处？平顶机匣有什么特别？纯属吃饱了撑的，M16A2、M4A1就已经是很成熟的设计，而那些缺陷（对应新产品的改进）如残渣等在美军里面根本就不成问题，你 ...

我觉得关键问题是，美陆军高层现在连有连发能力的M4A1都不让用，只给用只有3发点射和单发的M4用，这个决定对于作战部队，特别是特种部队来说，实在是相当的........

作者: vessjoe 时间: 2008-5-4 12:12

原帖由 papop 于 2008-3-15 10:51 发表

Wilcox是个什么公司？过去有过什么出名的产品？

WILCOX好东西可多……MK18MOD0上就有一标志性物件，还有NVG MOUNT之类的（在US都算稀有品种，买的死贵）

作者: zchen 时间: 2008-5-4 17:23
上面那个AP的采访录像有趣的是提到那个记者造访了COLT、FN、HK。只有HK在介绍HK416时当场给他演示了用沙子掩埋和浸水然后射击。。
还有就是COLT老总说只有俺们的M4是世界上唯一一把每天都在经过战斗考验的卡宾

作者: sforce 时间: 2008-5-8 13:01

原帖由 zchen 于 2008-5-4 17:23 发表
上面那个AP的采访录像有趣的是提到那个记者造访了COLT、FN、HK。只有HK在介绍HK416时当场给他演示了用沙子掩埋和浸水然后射击。。
还有就是COLT老总说只有俺们的M4是世界上唯一一把每天都在经过战斗考验的卡宾

这个采访有没有完整版下载的？

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